Richard E. (Dick) Goettling

This is an official historical leadership recall interview of Dick Goettling one of the Past Presidents of the Jacksonville Chapter of ASHRAE.

Dick. I just want to start with a few general questions. Where were you born and when were you born?
"Cleveland, Ohio on November 6, 1930."

What brought you to Florida from Ohio?
"The young lady that I was married to at that time was pregnant with my oldest son and. she was not feeling good at that time. The hot/cold weather in Cleveland drove me down to Florida and also to get away from that area. I also wanted to go to the University of Florida, so I came down here."

That sounds like a good move - you did that fairly early in life. I waited a whole lot later myself. Your wife's name is?
"Judie, my present wife is Judie, we've been married for thirty years. We have two children between us and I had three children with Arden, my first wife, who has passed away."

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know a lot about the history of the Jacksonville Chapter, since, I'm a fairly late addition. You attended the University of Florida?
"Yes, I graduated from the University of Florida's Engineering School in 1960 and I joined Trane Company at that time."

Did you have a major in Mechanical Engineering?
"Bachelor of Science in Industrial Engineering."

I have worked with a lot of guys with that degree. There are a lot of sales representatives out there who are ex-Trane representatives. I run into them every day. It is almost like they are a training ground.
"It is a good training ground. It's a great school that they have up there - six months of school."

And then after Trane, what did you do?
"I went with York for about five years. I left them when they wanted me to move to Miami. We decided to split company. I went with A. L. Hospers and Company for about two years until I decided to go out on my own. In 1984, I opened Puraire Distribution and Sales, Inc. at that time."

I've heard the name A. L. Hospers before.
"That is now Applied Mechanical Equipment, Inc., that's Lane Jackin's group." (Ed note: Applied Mechanical Equipment is a manufacturer's representative for York. WeatherKing, and many other product lines.)

I really didn't know the history myself. You are filling me in on several of the details that happened down here in the last several years. When did you join ASHRAE?
"In 1960, I guess, or 1961." (Ed. Note: Society lists his official date as 6/1/83 although Dick served as President of the Jacksonville Chapter for FY 1968/1969.)

Were you very active early on? "Yes, I became active real quick. I went though the chairs from about 1964. I became President in 1968."

What particular committee chairs did you fill?
"Well, I was on the Board of Governors to start with of course. Then, Treasurer, Secretary, and Vice-President. We didn't have a lot a committees at that time, to be frank with you, like we do today."

No TEGA, Refrigeration, or Membership Promotion?
"No, none of that at all. Mostly just a party chairmanship, and that is what I took over."

Sounds like a good job.
"It was. We joke about it, but at that time when we got ahead in the Treasury, everyone wanted to have a party, so we had a party. We would take the money and go fishing or do something with it. We weren't into ASHRAE Research Promotion funding and such at that time.

I know that the last President's Ball was a fun time for me and you seemed to have a good time.
"I always have a good time."

That was a good party.
"We had some great parties back in the sixties, seventies and early eighties. They were all galas. They were all big time parties."

Sort of similar to what we had (at our June 1996 Presidents Ball).
"Very similar. Very similar. We had themes. We had roaring twenties nights where everyone had bathtub gin and machine guns and all sorts of stuff. We had other themes, too. Just a lot of fun times."

That was sort of the tradition that we had in our East Tennessee Chapter, too. I got to liking that up there. One of my first recommendations was to start that when I came down here and became involved in the Board of Governors (BOG), but we went in several different directions, at the request of the BOG, for several years, I am glad to see it get back to this.
"There have been a lot of changes and I think that they are for the better now."

I know that you are a golfer.
"Yes. I own golf clubs and I belong to a golf club. That's probably as far as you can go. I am shooting to an eighteen handicap right now."

That's not bad. [Lunch arrived and the interview was interrupted until after lunch]. We were joined during lunch by Larry Turknett, Chapter Governor and Research Promotion Chair, and his father Roy Turknett, also an ASHRAE member. Quite a lot of other historical reminiscing occurred, but is omitted at the request of the participants.]

One thing that I wanted to talk about is your Puraire Company. It looks like you hit a pretty good niche. You might have been a little bit before your time with what you are doing.
"It appears so because indoor air quality is a catchword, but also an expensive catchword. A lot of people don't like to admit that they even have a problem in a building. It is becoming litigation driven more than any other thing. Most people don't even want us to go into the door and tell them that they have a problem. Now they are recognizing it and finding out that they are losing tenants. The occupants are suing and collecting. So there really is a lot of room for this. The engineer needs to address this in his design. In fact, he can't even worry about the cost of it. He has to address this issue. If the Owner takes it out, the Engineer has documented that he thought about it and asked for it. This will alleviate his area of responsibility if there is a problem in the future. Because as you know, there isn't a statute of limitations. They can come back and get you at any time. We are doing a lot of portable air conditioning which is saving a lot of people a lot of lost time because they can bring in portable air conditioning when their regular units break down. We can bring them in and keep them on like, keep their computers running, keep their telephones and other heat producing products running. We do a lot of work with that and we also do some personnel cooling. It's been real good for us."

Just for the background of people who don't know, most of the people in our chapter do know, 1 guess that you rent equipment, you sell equipment and you also do some consulting from an indoor air quality.
"Right, 1have gone to a bunch of schools including Honeywells. I've gone through a certified Indoor Air Quality Professional program. I have a lot of instrumentation and tools to do a lot of analysis with. I also have about thirty years of experience in the HVAC business so I look at indoor air quality from a building systems standpoint rather than from an industrial Hygienist's standpoint. They (Industrial Hygienists) do a good job at what they do, but they are not experts in the air conditioning business and they really can't analyze poor airflow, humidity problems, etc. That is not really what they are looking for. This is really where the problems begin."

So you are trying to marry the roles of the industrial hygienist and HVAC Engineer.
"Right. We do basically a Phase I program. We go in and analyze the building, the HVAC systems, air distribution systems, the temperatures, the humidity and carbon dioxide. If they are in line and there is still a problem, they should go to a epidemiologist or someone else who could solve their problem in advanced stages. We would drop out at that point. That becomes very serious litigation and expert witnesses are required. ......."
And this is where some subcontractors finding themselves getting into and finding themselves problems taking those responsibilities on. It is a rare IHU problems but we have done a lot work with ozone generation, done a lot of work of ultra violet, purification systems, were doing a lot of work with dehumidification systems, a lot. Treating 100% outside air systems, etc. Apparently in Florida dehumidification is the most severe problems I tend to agree with you. and causes a multitude of other problems. We do a lot of indoor pool jobs because of the deterioration of the building, etc. We do a lot of work in that area too.

If I remember correct]v and I can strike this from the record if I need to. You're also a registered P.E.
No, I am not. Oh, I thought you were. No I am not. In fact when I first talked about doing it, I never went after it because I was consulting with engineers and I thought that I would not only be in competition but if I made a statement, I would be held to the professional level at that point. Right. I was selling Trane and so we felt it might be a little conflict and nowadays its obviously not a problem but it was then.

But, back in the old days you saw very few sales people and kept the P.E. but their are a few around and I thought you were one of them and I apologize.
No, no. Its no big problem, I think I am capable of being one. I think so too and I'm just trying to get everything on the record.

Who were the really memorable people that you knew professionally back when you started out in our chapter? Who were the dynamic people?
"Obviously, the dynamic people, of course, were the VanWaganen group, the VanWaganen and Taylor group at that time. Red Taylor was his name and it was the senior VanWagenen. Then Walter (VanWaganen) came on later and it became VanWaganen and Searcy. And then, Walter, the father of Wick (Walter C.VanWaganen, Jr.) passed away and Wick's firm now is VauWaganen and Beavers. There are three generations. They were the big engineers at that time. Tribble, Lee and Warren (TLW) was also a fairly large firm at that time. Dick Warren left and started his own firm and has now passed away. I don't know what happened to Tribble. Lee was very elderly and not active in the firm. Lloyd Davis of that group (TLW) later became a PE and took over prior to starting his own firm. He has also passed away. Reynolds, -Smith and Hills has always been here. Then I guess, Evans and Hammond is an old group that has been here for years. Those guys were all young men when they started here. This was all a long time ago. Larry Parlet was very well known with Reynolds, Smith and Hills, doing a lot of Southern Bell work. W. W. Gay started in 1962, and he became a big factor at that time in the contracting market. He worked very closely with the engineering society at that time. They depended on the contractors quite a bit, because as you remember, this was a transition time from plumbing into air conditioning in the fifties. It was really kind of a new road."

That's a good point. This is a time that I don't remember very well.
In 1955, they put a Trane centrifugal chills into the Blue Cross/Blue Shield building. Many, many years later, Gordon College, who was with Wilder and Associates, and who was also a very prominent engineer who later died in an airplane crash, and was also a very colorful individual at that time, bought that 100 ton chiller and moved it into the 4400 Building on Emerson Street where Al Hospers group was located along with Ben Cheatwood and Wesley of Florida (a general contracting firm). That chiller still ran and this was in the seventies. That was quite an innovation at that time."

That was probably one of the more interesting times in this business. because a lot of things in this part of the world were still being developed from scratch.
"1 tell you that I still see some of the same types of engineering - centrifugals and air handling units that are still doing the job."

Are there any high points that stand out with relation to you and ASHRAE? For example, your presidency, was that probably your most exciting year? What do you remember about ASHRAE?
"ASHRAE at that time was more of a party group. As I have told you when we were off the air, Society did not play a prominent role as it does today. We didn't work for star points. We didn't go after research dollars. Basically, we didn't do anything. As a matter of fact, many people who came to the meetings didn't even join ASHRAE They just came to the meetings. We did have a very dedicated group. We met with thirty to forty at every meeting. It was a party group. As soon as we had money in the treasury, we would vote and have a party. We would spend the money on fishing or golf outings or more sociable types of functions with the wives involved. We used to have the great gala affairs such as the President's Ball. We had some great, great affairs - memorable events."

If you had it to do all over again what would you do? Would you still go through the Trane type sales?
"I enjoyed that very much. That was an excellent, excellent school. I have nothing to say about Trane in that situation at all."

Would you focus on sales or would you consider design, construction or...
"I would probably, I don't know, I like sales and obviously I do it all the time. Its hard to say now what I would do. Probably at that time, because sales is composed of hills and valleys, you have your ups and downs and are always worried about tomorrow because your last sale doesn't mean a damned thing. You're worried about competition. Competition is good for you because it keeps you perky, learning and on your toes so that you can be competitive and give the engineers what they want which is service and knowledge. I don't know. I would probably.... I quit high school. I never finished high school. (Ed. Note: Dick served in the United States Air Force between I949 and 1953) So when I went into college (Ed. Note: in 1955), I didn't think that I was going to be an engineer. That was not what I was going into to. I was going into business. When I went in there, they talked me into taking some math courses. I did real well. The engineering school contacted me and asked me to come in there. I made that decision at that time I guess because I was flattered. I went in there and became an engineer."

Did you know a lot about engineering at that time?
"I didn't know a damned thing about it. I never took anything other than addition and subtraction."

Well, that was sort of my case too. I really didn't even know an engineer why I decided ....
"I was a college graduate .... One thing that I have always been proud of is my education. I worked my way through college. I was married and had a child when I went through. I worked forty hours a week. I took full engineering courses. I was pretty proud of that,"

You came out as an Industrial Engineer (Ed. Note: in 1960). What led you to Trane, the best opportunity?
"At that time, I went through a lot of industrial plants and I didn't like the atmosphere (miserable and noisy). I got a taste of sales and that's obviously what I chose, In fact, IBM offered me a job which I probably should have taken. I went up to Atlanta. The top man for the southeast offered me the job. I turned him down because it just didn't fit my personality. I saw about fifteen salesmen coming in to the building together. They looked like clones. They had on brown hats, brown suits and brown ties. They were clones, I didn't fit into that group and so I went on to Trane. I really enjoyed it."

One of the things that I remember when I came down here was that you were the first. person to invite me to an ASHRAE meeting.
"That's right"

That's one of the reasons that I sort of picked up on you as a person to talk to because I knew that you were a past president and you have been promoting it for a long time. Like I say, seems like you're there about as much as anybody.
"Yes, I'm not as involved as 1 used to be. Obviously, a lot of the younger people have taken over, which they should....I've always been one to put my two cents in if 1 felt it was wrong so I don't think that I should do it as much as I used to. Its been run pretty well. Its a lot more formal now and a lot more oriented toward society, research and the industry itself, rather than just being a local group."

What do you see is wrong with our professional right now? What are the evils that you see out there or do you think everything in fine.
Well, I think the problem I see most is that the architect controls the budget changes too much. Which in turn causes consulting engineers to not actually give exactly what they should and have to settle for a lot less. Also, I've always felt this and that the contractors are the engineers worst enemies because their going to to try cut it much as they can to make a profit which is normal. Nothing wrong with that but the engineer has to stand up for his specs and say no, we cannot afford to do this but the owners always want to cut the costs, there has always been the cutting out of mechanical systems. It don't see many walls falling clown, you don't see any ceilings falling down but you sure see a lot of air conditioning units causing problems and air distribution, air quality, its obviously become a big problem and I think its strictly because of cost savings and set this up over the past. Obviously we did not think about the type building syndrome until after it happened which you cannot ignore that That was dictation by the government and everything so that was just a matter of history but now that we know it we would address these factors a lot more than they did in the past. But its basic, cutting costs, from our standpoint, bidding the job its our problem to get the job and I don't like to see things taken out unless there is a reason for it. Well as engineering, I agree with a lot of your comments, it's a complex situation. I don't know what the right way is.

What sort of problems to you see with our chapter?
Need to form a committee to get the engineers involved.

That is certainly discussed at almost every board meeting this year.
I think visits need to made to each engineering firms and say this is an obligation that you have to society. When they ask where it came from you can tell them it came from ASHRAE Standard 6289. It came from.people like us. Donating research money to get it and they may get on committee and they may go on trip but they need to come down and be a member and there are a few of you'll that are active and there those who are not.

I agree with you again. I wish I had the solution, we've talked about better solutions, we talked of better programs and it seems like the fun activities are the ones that pull the people out and certainly the social implication is a big part of ASHRAE and I agree with you on that but we're just going to have to get them out to participate in some technical things too.
Well it may be your location, there are many factors that may deter people, I think the second Tuesday changing helped. I think we need to get back to a telephone committee.

We actually thinking about a fax committee. Fax committee is just as good even better. We could use our fax machine. using the broadcast feature and we can ten or fifteen out in a minute.
Yeah. Yeah, contact is the key. I think another thing we can do is raise some money to have one table top per meeting or maybe two for a.representative to bring his up and show them beforehand. We've talked about that and I think that is something that is going to be implemented again before long. Just charge for the table and allow them to only do it once because otherwise someone might the whole year up. We don't want to do that. Its things like that, we use to have drawings, we use to have dollar drawings and 50% would go the winner of drawing. It would keep people at the meeting.

Who were the big contractors back when you started in our chapter?
"At that time they had Walter Denson; Florida Weather, which was headed by the kellys and is now superseded by Indoor Comfort and Weather Engineers; Grelitsch, whose chief estimator was H. B. McLeod; Alex Gilmore; and Thompkins and Beckwith. Two men from Thompkins and Beckwith left. One of those was W. W. Gay who opened up W. W. Gay Mechanical Contractors, Inc. with the blessing of the Beckwiths. Obviously, history has shown what he has done (Ed. Note: one of the ten largest mechanical contractors in the United States). Hugh started Steven Consolidated which became big and then went busted. He did a lot of silo work out west and Market Square Shopping Center at Phillips Highway and Emerson. He was quite a character. Those two were the primary motivators at Thompkins and Beckwith. Frank Griffo wasn't a very big contractor, but be was very influential in ASHRAE - quite outspoken guy. They dominated the market along with Bob Pepperdine, until he dropped into a smaller niche market." That gives me a better feel for what the background of both the engineering and contractor community is down here.

What is your favorite meeting of the year?
"Of course its obviously President's Ball."

How about the Oyster Roast?
Well, I haven't gone for the last couple of times to be frank with you due to conflicts. Obviously its a great time. Everyone has a great time there, but I haven't been in the last couple of years. It seems negligent, but it seems that something conflicts with me every time. Well, I worked on it for many years. So, we've had some great times out there."

It was a nice one this last year.
"Yes, I know it was. Those two functions are very important to the chapter. They are a money maker, usually. And even if they are not, they are something that needs to be done."

It gets a lot of people out. I guess that's one of the most important things. Get them out and get them talking to each other. People don't see each other that often.
I do think that we need a committee to go to the engineering community and the contractors and get them to come to the meetings. The contractors have a good group. They have their meetings. The engineers themselves don't got together like they used to. We used to have a manufacturers representative council where we would meet and discuss credit ratings and things like that, but that went by the wayside. Then they tried a bid depository where they put the bids in so that there wouldn't be any of this after the fact. That didn't last long at all because there was plenty after the fact. There have been a lot of things tried around here to get the market different, but we've had some fun doing it. It was quite a shock to some people to find out that not everyone agreed. They would say that they would do something, but not everyone would do it"

So you're saying that this hasn't been a totally ethical ...
"No, I didn't say that now. I said that at the time that they would say something they mean it, but at other times they might not do it. It depends on the dollar. As we used to say: 'Honesty starts to break down at about 7%.' When you cut your price by 7%, honesty and loyalty starts to break down, It was quite a factor."

Well, I can't think about anything else that I really wanted to ask. Is there anything else that you really wanted to talk about today? I think that you've given me quite a bit of insight that, once I get this on paper and get a chance to review it. I think that we will be trying to blend these things in with things that we hear from other people and just try to expand on our existing history of our chapter.
"Well, I agree. Its a great chapter and its done a lot for ASHRAE and a lot for local people. Its given us a lot of social functions. I hope it continues to do so. I think that we need to bring the people back into the fold. Get more engineers into it and get more contractors into it. They don't feel that they are getting anything out of it. Maybe, like you say the meetings may be dry. I think that the roundtables always excite people.

Thank you, Dick.
"Thank you."

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